The Job Search Advice Every College Student Needs to Hear (From Real Hiring Experts)

Most job seekers think sending more applications is the answer. Hiring experts say otherwise.

In this episode of The Hiring Confessional, Michael Hayes sits down with Grand Canyon University students Kaitlyn Anderson and McKenna Martin to discuss what today's graduates are experiencing in the job market—and what employers actually want.

From networking and internships to LinkedIn, AI, communication skills, and multiple interview rounds, this conversation uncovers the career advice most colleges don't teach.

Whether you're a college student, recent graduate, young professional, or hiring manager, you'll learn practical strategies to stand out in today's competitive job market.

In this episode:

•  Why networking beats online job applications 
•  The biggest mistakes new graduates make 
•  How to build a resume with little experience 
•  Why communication skills matter more than ever 
•  LinkedIn tips that can help you get noticed 
•  The truth about internships and entry-level jobs 
•  Should you take an unpaid internship? 
•  How AI is changing hiring and education 
•  Why employers care about problem solvers 
•  What recruiters actually look for during interviews 

If you're trying to land your first job, switch careers, or hire better talent, this episode is packed with actionable insights.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Good morning. This is my case for the hiring confessional. Usually today I do a little rant at the beginning, but I'm not going to do that today because I have two guests today that I was lucky enough to have in my class at uh Grand Canyon University. And one of them was lucky enough to have me twice, which is a real accomplishment since usually people don't buy the snack they don't like twice. So I'm going to start with you, Caitlin. Can you introduce yourself and give us a little background on how you got to Arizona and um how did it go with GCU?

SPEAKER_05 0:51

Hi, yeah, I'm Caitlin Anderson, and I am a recent grad from GCU. I'm from Washington State originally, and I was kind of pulled by the Arizona Sun. And GCU is an affordable school, Christian values, just you know, overall good thing. And they made it really easy to like want to go there. Great marketing. So that's kind of how I ended up there. I had my associate's degree first, went in as a transfer. Um, and yeah, they set it up really nice. So I just graduated with a bachelor's of science in marketing and advertising with a minor in entrepreneurial studies. So the that is pretty broad. I wasn't sure I wanted to go with that, but I just landed my first full-time job at a political organization. So we'll see how how that goes, and I'm excited to get going and start.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Is the pol uh how did you uh find that job, the political one?

SPEAKER_05 1:44

Honestly, just an online ad and the website, you know, type looked at the specs, see what other people thought about the org and just applied. Really tailored my resume to I think what skills I had that would benefit each other, like me and the employer, and just shot my shot and then they got back to me, and the rest is history. But I did start as an intern, so I did an eight-week internship and then got my contract extended. And then after that, I kind of I really enjoyed being there and I thought it was a good fit for me. So we talked and talked, and I landed my full-time contract. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

We'll get back to the talking and talking and the multiple interviews and stuff. And then we have McKenna Martin, who's uh still going to school, which is totally great. And um, but um tell us how you ended up at GCU and why. I mean, what was your poll? Yeah, because you're from Colorado.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

I am, I am from Colorado, so I'm McKenna. Um I'm originally from Colorado Springs, Colorado, where I then was pulled down to GCU and brought down here. I actually was fully committed to going to a different school in Colorado. And I came down here, toured the campus. GCU has a lot of great advertising, great marketing, um, just like Caitlin had said. And so came down here and just absolutely fell in love with the campus. Um, learning to deal with the heat a little bit here still, but uh love GCU. I have a major in business entrepreneurship with a minor in psychology, and I'm graduating here in December.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Great. Um here's a good question. You've heard and I'll go back and forth between you. Um, what I'll uh you heard me talk about this in class is, and and again, I'm a male, but why are the females so far ahead as far as males go at your particular age in the college lifestyle? I mean, it's I I I didn't remember the gap when I went to school because maybe I didn't pay attention because I was too busy partying. But what about why do you think that is, Caitlin?

SPEAKER_05 3:50

I think men recently have been more pulled into the trades, which hence no need for college or university. And I also think women are just more type A, more organized and ambitious. And so that is a route that they're just more drawn to. And GCU specifically has like the Christian values mindset and all that. And I think there's higher statistics of women being more pulled to like faith in that way. So I think that plays a part for sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

But do you think that delays like you know, things like getting married and stuff? Because if you want to get, if you want to be kind of successful, sometimes you got to kind of fly solo a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 4:25

Yeah. I definitely think it is playing a part. I'd love to see like concrete stats like of society as a whole and like that gap, but with just my personal experience, seeing my friends and you know others that are in my circle, I think getting married later is becoming more prominent for sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

It's probably safer to stay from getting divorced, too.

SPEAKER_05 4:44

True.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Yeah. Um, what do you think, McKenna?

SPEAKER_04 4:48

Yeah, I mean, I would say with the whole marriage conversation, overall, I think a lot of women have become so much more career focused that they become less relationship focused. At GCU, we still see quite a bit of students, um, just with the whole Christian college stereotype and everything of the whole Ring by Spring.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

But Ring by Spring. Ring by Spring. Oh, that's a great one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

However, I think it definitely varies on career paths and everything as well. Because you see a lot of very ambitious, let's say business women, for example, who might not be getting married quite as early on because they're so focused on advancing in their career.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Do you think, because, you know, let's face it, since probably the a little before the pandemic, the, you know, the overall male thing with the Me Too and all that, they've really pushed, I think, a lot of men down to the point to where a lot of this changed, where people were like, hey, I just, you know, I just want to, I don't want to do anything that's going to offend somebody. Like, you know, the difference between like when I was younger, hugging and shaking hands and all that stuff. Now you pause. Like you don't even you feel uncomfortable. Do you have you noticed that, Caitlin?

SPEAKER_05 5:58

Kind of. You definitely have to like read the room on that. And I think you have to know a person a lot more if you're just going for a big old bear hug. But I definitely would say I have taken a step back. I don't really just want to hug a you know a random person, but I also don't think things are always that deep. It just depends on, I guess, the situation. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_04 6:18

I mean, I think that it definitely varies. If I'm in a professional setting, I'm definitely not gonna just go straight in for a big bear hug. Um, I'm gonna go more for the nice firm um handshake with direct eye contact and politeness and manners and everything. But it also depends on how you were raised, because a lot of people have not been raised necessarily with that same ability to walk into a professional setting and know how to behave. So we've veered away from guiding your your children and your families and everything into how to act respectfully and everything in society compared to what it used to be. That is true.

SPEAKER_05 6:56

You see all the kids you know, screaming in the grocery store and you know, 100% and I mean buried in their phone.

SPEAKER_04 7:02

Right, yeah. And I mean, I grew up going to Cotillion and learning how to behave and have proper manners and how to have a proper handshake and a good conversation and everything. And I don't know a single other person that's not from the small area from the community that I lived in that went to Cotillion. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

And do you think yeah, there's not a lot of manners instruction, and that people will laugh that know me because manners isn't my big deal, but I do know, and people criticize every time we talk about this, being on time, um, showing up, uh, being able to have a discussion with somebody, and not staying around looking on your phone. Right. That's one of the biggest problems communication-wise, I think. Yeah, and I think it's only gonna get worse because now we got AI that does everything for us, or we think can do everything for us.

SPEAKER_05 7:53

Yeah. I view you as my teacher just because I had you for two semesters, but have in your experience teaching and like working with my generation specifically, do you feel like the social skills and like the ability to talk of kids has really declined? I remember you used to like have to like really pull that kid's teeth out to even get them to like want to look up and ask you a question or even answer a question. Is that normal?

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Well, it's normal because we're not teaching that, you know, from about seventh and eighth grade, probably even earlier. Yeah. You know, the getting somebody to do a presentation, book reports, things where you got to stand up in front of the class. I mean, I had a speech class when I was a senior at in high school that was really transformative, about, and it was all about speaking. That's all you did. There were speeches every day, topics every day. Hey, tell me about this pencil, you know, and you had to do it. So you get used to doing things like that. Now you don't have to be an expert, but you should be able to have a uh a normal discussion with somebody. Like, if my dad had people over to the house, you were expected to come out, meet, shake hands, small talk, and then you got the hook sign, you get the heck out of there. But they don't you don't do that now. Now you go over to somebody's house and everybody's sitting on the couch, you know, with the phone. Go to a restaurant, right? Look around. Nobody's talking, they're just looking at their phone. So I think, yeah, we're not doing it enough. The classes are too big. We're we're talking about concepts, which I'm gonna get into later with AI that are get getting blown out of the water. So the only thing you have that differentiates you from somebody else is your ability to hold a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

And those people will generally be your either leaders or your highest paid people. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_04 9:45

I think something really interesting is my mom taught me to have a conversation. Everybody loves to talk about themselves. So just keep asking them questions about themselves. And that's one of the biggest, I think, ways that you can learn how to have a conversation with somebody. Because it's like, oh, okay, what do you do for work? Really, how has that challenged you? What have you learned from that? You know? Um, how is your family? Just basic questions that, you know, are not necessarily super challenging, but people have lost the aspect of small talk, and we almost need to bring that back to again learn how to have those real conversations. Um, because even sitting as a college student, I could say, sitting in a class, I'll walk into a classroom and every single person will be staring at their phones, looking down, not necessarily wanting to talk. So trying to jump into a conversation and meet your peers and everything like that can oftentimes be really difficult if you don't have some prior connection to them. Um meeting a stranger out on the street is extremely hard to do, I would say, now these days.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

I think when in class, in the first, even toward the end, when I look at kids' faces, because I got what, an hour and 20 minutes to look at them, the the fear that you're gonna call them. And I actually, the one that looks the scared, more scared, is the person I generally call on. But I also try to figure out okay, I gotta get this person to do it. But it's almost like a, hey, you just gotta jump. You can't spend all your time worried about, I mean, a simple answer. Um, what's good is people, if you can get them feeling comfortable, and at the end of the semester, they'll come up and say, Hey, I can, you know, I can actually have a I've had people call me and go, hey, or see me on campus and go, hey, I can actually have a discussion. And I can I'm presenting in class now. Yeah, and I'm like, you're gonna be so happy you do that because people are not doing that in the workplace. And they're still very valuable salespeople. All these it's all about communication. You're not gonna sell people sending them texts, yeah. So you've got to be able to describe your whatever you're selling, and you've got to be able to deliver on those promises, and you're gonna be you're gonna have a lot of rejection.

SPEAKER_05 12:04

Yeah. I have a question for you too, or like a resume question. So I used to think putting communication as a skill in your resume was kind of like an easy gimme, or like it's like, oh yeah, like a filler. Do you think there's value in that?

SPEAKER_03 12:18

Yes, I think if you especially if you have like internships and some and stuff like that, or or businesses or in your background that you did presentations, yeah. There's ways to to put that in there as a clue. But that's that's something that going back to the communication thing that you said and that question, most people that I meet that have a trouble getting a job is they have zippo on their resume.

SPEAKER_04 12:49

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

They they they have their school, their high school, or whatever it is, and that's it. Well, guess what? The other person has two jobs, they volunteered a church. I've had people go, Well, should I put down and I worked at McDonald's? I go, yeah. I go, that's an actual job. And it's customer service and things like that. So why are we not doing that? Is what the question, what the question is. So um a little more. Yeah, because sometimes they can't hear us. They can hear me because I'm loud. So I think not putting that stuff on your resume is a bad thing.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

Right. So, what would you say about the importance of references when it comes to a resume and looking for a job and providing references to um someone who's considering hiring you?

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Um, okay, here's my raw take on that. Are you gonna give me somebody that doesn't like you?

SPEAKER_04 13:48

Probably not, no.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

And then that's kind of what I think about references. If you gave me somebody that goes, oh my god, I wouldn't hire her again if it was I gave me a million dollars, you wouldn't give me that person.

SPEAKER_04 13:59

Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

So I think references are they're okay, but I mean, I would not make a hiring decision based on the city.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

Okay, so you're not looking as heavily at references.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Plus, people they're worried about getting sued. If you work at a big company and you call the HR, you could have been the outstanding star there for 20 years.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

They won't say anything but, hey, are you rehiable? Yes or no? That's it.

SPEAKER_04 14:23

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

And um, because they're afraid of getting sued. So you get no feedback because of all these discrimination laws and stuff. Now, some of them are needed, but you can't improve if I can't tell you what you did wrong.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Hey, you slow you showed up and you're kind of a slob, or you were late.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Um, you're not very good at communicating, things like that. So you're not going to get those tips. So you're stuck on your own figuring that out. Yeah. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 14:54

Yeah, yeah. What about an internal reference? Like, for example, I'm applying at this company. I know this person who already works there isn't different. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

Um, we, you know, my friend Tim Dwyer that spoke in your class. He um we had a gal that worked at American Express for like 35 years. And he put something on Facebook, she reached out and got him an interview and got him in. Again, and then he told you the story about the kid. Yes, he did the same thing for him. His resume went to the top of the pile.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

Because the hiring people are like, well, Tim's a great guy and he knows people, so I'm gonna take his advice.

SPEAKER_05 15:37

Right. That goes back to the networking thing. It's about who you know, not always what you know.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

Yeah, and that's the part about the communicate. Can I communicate with people on a regular basis? They said today, like lots of people look at their phone and go, well, that person's never called me in a while or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

But they said for yourself, there's I don't know if this is true, but I read it. 60 to 75 percent of the people you don't decide to contact, you just move out of their sphere of influence.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

So I always been tell people is you be the aggressor.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

You know, sometimes I just go through my address book and I'll go, oh, I haven't talked to this person for a while. Let me send them a text or let whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

So it just gets you in this mindset every day of that I need to contact people and I need to stay relevant.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Kind of keeping up with that network that you're trying to build without necessarily losing those resources. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:33

And when you work at a place, you need to develop a network outside the company.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Vendors, people that do business with them, um, somebody that's a supplier, whatever it is, the more because what happens is I have friends that have been in the telecommunication business that they lose a job and they get four calls. And because people have been watching them and they know them, and so they're like, oh, call that guy and let's make it.

SPEAKER_04 16:59

Pick him up, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

Yeah, so they're not looking for work. Yeah, they're constantly um in the in the eye because they prepared themselves the right way. If you're just sitting in the back of the office doing work or at your remote hangout where nobody can see you, you're expendable.

SPEAKER_05 17:18

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Um, I mean, you've heard me talk about that before. I think remote work is under certain circumstances, is not great. I mean, a hybrid I could live with, but all the time remote, I think it's bad for the for you as the employee.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

Yeah, I mean, remote has become so sought after, I think, with the job, with job aspects and what you're looking for and everything. And I think it's interesting to hear you say that because it places a lot more value on someone who goes into a company or goes into an office and works and um communicates and interacts with their coworkers and their employers and everyone outside. Um, because just like you're saying, without that aspect of networking and communication, you're going to be missing out on a lot of opportunities that you could be opening up for yourself.

SPEAKER_05 18:03

In my experience, I've so some I had a job and we had a few remote. Yeah. We had a few remote people who were great. They did their job very well, but they're on East Coast time. And so it's like, well, you know, we're getting to the office at nine, and you know, there, it's already noon there, and they have all these things, and then, you know, at three o'clock, we're looking for, hey, you know, some direction, and they're, you know, they're already clocked out for the day, or even just like makes collaboration and communication so much more difficult. You know, you got an email or text, or like, hey, let's jump on a phone call. I can't just go knock on your office door and be like, hey, can you take a look at this or whatever? It just kind of delays like the efficiency of things. So there's definitely pros and cons, but I that is one thing I could never super love about remote, is like, it is just so hard. I just want to talk to somebody, just want to be right in front of you and yeah, like here, look at this. What do you think? Or you know, yeah, all things.

SPEAKER_04 18:55

I worked with a lady who was completely remote from me in Colorado and absolutely loved her. She was a great person. I think we would have connected great and become great friends if I actually got to see her more than just a phone call every every week.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

The people the I just think the remote work over the years has become I think it's kind of on, it's not dying on the vine, but it's it's not like it was during the pandemic. So people are there's still people that want to fight it, but I'm like, okay, career-wise, it's probably not the smartest thing. What about because you um how did you get interviews? What was the best way? How many times did you this political organization, how many times did you interview that?

SPEAKER_05 19:44

I had three for my first internship. So I did like an HR screening phone call, you know, where they call, ask a few questions, whatever, make sure you're a real person, whatnot. And then I had a second interview. Um, and and that was like on Zoom or Google Meets or whatever. And that went okay. And then I got another call back and was like, hey, we'd like one more with a few different people. So I did that again. And then it was kind of just a waiting period. So that was a little bit of a long process. I know, like now that I'm internal of the organization, they're brand new and so you know, starting up, at least this department. And so I think it was things relevant to that, just starting new. But it's still like as a prospective employee, I was like, wow, this is a lot. I don't know if it takes three times to exactly you know know me, or does this help at all? Right. I I was curious to know that.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

But did you end up having to follow up with them quite a few times? Or never?

SPEAKER_05 20:46

No, that was the good thing, is they were very communicative, which I appreciated because I don't know, it kept me in the loop and it made me feel better that this was like legit and going to happen. So it definitely helped with making my choices.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Don't forget the mics, ladies. Yeah, yeah. It's like me, it's like a I don't pay attention to any rules. So that now her saying that, that is a corporate typical deal. Sometimes it's five. The thing I heard used to hear at GCU, some kids are going through five interviews. Like, the only reason why you're doing five interviews is because nobody wants to get blamed. I want to spread the blame out. So if the guy stinks or the girl stinks, oh, I got covered. Nobody wants to pull the trigger. Right. So, and then there's a lot of people that get pulled in, they ask the same damn questions over and over. It doesn't help anybody out. So either I I say hire fast, fire fast. If you're in the trades, small businesses, that's what they do.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

They're not they're not wondering about if the guy's gonna interview like Walter Cronkite. Yeah, they don't care. So it's a little bit different. But when you get into the corporate world now and you're fighting for more. Work and for jobs when there's less jobs, AI's over everything now. It's gonna destroy everything. And a lot of people still think that, but then they'll use it as an excuse not to look. And the other thing I think you guys know, you hear me talk about it, if you're just putting in resumes on job boards, it ain't gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

You're gonna get probably 15, maybe 20% of your job search. Now, I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying you could you got to do it, you know, a couple times a week or whatever, but you're not probably gonna get your job that way. You're gonna get it through a referral. Now, the school, that's kind of a referral because they know what they're getting, or somebody um like you got an internship because of somebody that I know. Yes, just because you, you know, when people talk with me and I get to know them on a personal basis, then I feel really comfortable about recommending them. And I think we need more internships, especially for people in college. And I think you could if the school didn't get in the way. Yeah, if you just did uh business people to business people and then to the students direct, let them figure it out. We don't need to know all these different things, and you need to sign this, and we need to go through all that stuff. That's what causes the problem. Get out of the way. Just place the person, make the referral, and move on. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_04 23:34

I mean, I think it's important to note that so many of us students, and probably younger folks as well, are aiming for that perfect job right away. We want to get that dream job of a hybrid job where you can travel and do whatever you want, and you've got great perks and all of that. And it takes time to build up to getting that job that you love and that you know you're really secure in or whatever it may be, because so you have to start out at kind of the bottom. And it it does kind of come from again, it's like, okay, I'm working a service job right now, and then I'm gonna go to school and I'm gonna start um integrating myself with internships and getting a lot more experience and everything so that when I do graduate, I can start applying for other jobs, but I might not get that superior job right away. I might have to work my way up. Like you started working with the job.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

But you work retail too.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

I do work retail, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Which is customer service and sales.

SPEAKER_04 24:29

100%. And I I will say I love it. Um and I actually started working retail and customer service and sales when I was 15 years old. Um, I started at the bottom of what you would say. I work at it, I worked at a local ski shop and I worked in the rental department. From there, I kind of tried to work my way up. And I'm actually at the first shop I started at, I didn't get it to work my way up. I was I was stuck in rentals that entire time. Um, however, as I continued to build up and I moved out here, I found a local ski shop down here that I applied to. And very quickly I was able to say, well, this is this is what I want to do. This is my next step. And um, you know, I'm well educated, but I want to learn more as well. And they quickly integrated me and sort of teaching me more and growing and everything. So there is that room for growth as well. But I didn't start at the point that I wanted to be at where I am now.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

What about you, Caitlin?

SPEAKER_05 25:20

I think as far as like efficiency, the professional to the student is the best way to do that. Like, you know, no middleman, but I know in the background the school wants to track all of these things, like, oh, we got X amount of students, this internship or whatever, so they can go market that to get more students so they keep, you know, having the tuition dollars roll in. But I definitely think if we just cut them out, there'd be a lot more happy business owners that get great students, and you don't have to go through the whole, you know what I mean? Oh, here's this guy, here's a school, here's a student. Oh, well, the student said this, and the employer said this, and whatever. And it's just, you know, you need to be out of the way. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

And I think now we're we're picking on, we're we won't be picking on just GC. Every college does the exact same thing. And I've been, even when I was graduating, I dealt with master's program, and they were very little help, if not a hindrance. So I think, I mean, if I was the employer, I would be reaching out to people I knew at the school and having them tell me, hey, this somebody that you should talk to. It makes it so much easier because people just they want to say yes, but they have to be have this little bit of confidence that you're not, you know, full of it.

SPEAKER_05 26:39

Do employers, do you think employers view interns or students as work? Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 26:45

Well, here's the difference is most of the time when you get an internship at a bigger company, um, they have a program. So they you do it. A lot of times in the um smaller business, the owner has an idea that he wants an intern, but he doesn't know what he wants them to do. So, what that causes is you're you go to work and you don't you need direction, you have to have some type of plan on a daily basis, and it's kind of like a free flow. It's kind of like saying, Hey, you know, I just want to have an intern because I want to have an intern. That's not what an intern's for. So before you, every time somebody goes, you know, I'm thinking about bringing in an intern, and I'll go, what do you want them to do? Well, I'm thinking about this. I go, well, you need to write it all down. And I go, when you write it all down and you come up with a plan, check back with me, and then we can start talking about who wants to do that. But I think there's I know a couple people that have done this, and you spinning your wheels at work all day doing nothing.

SPEAKER_05 27:45

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

I don't know if 100%. I don't know if that's gonna be that's not gonna keep your interest, and you're gonna get bored, and then you're just gonna leave.

SPEAKER_05 27:53

Yeah. Do you think interns should be paid?

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Oh, absolutely. And they most of the time now, because they changed a bunch of the laws, but with this old thing where people were working for free, you know what they used to do too, is that I don't know, some companies still do it. They give you a project to do and then they grade it or whatever. And I'm like, okay, so now you're working for free. And I just don't think working for free is a great idea. Now, if it's a something you like to do and it's a nonprofit and they're not gonna pay you, and you want to do it because you like to do it, that's great. But you make that decision. But not paying people, that's just cheap. And it's not very bright.

SPEAKER_04 28:31

Yeah. So when it comes to let's say you have the opportunity for an unpaid internship, um, whatever, whatever the internship may be, compared to a basic retail sales job that is paid. Um, and it comes to experience and what employers are going to be looking for on your resume and what makes you valuable. Do you say that there's a big drawback to taking that retail customer service job versus taking an unpaid internship with maybe a bigger company?

SPEAKER_03 28:57

That's a conundrum.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

So it depends on what type of business it is. If you're like an engineer or something of that architecture or something, and they had something like that, and you were willing to say, hey, listen, this is a better opportunity for resume building, I get it. But if it was, hey, let's go work at a in a sales department as a sales assistant, I would rather do the one that paid and had direct selling.

SPEAKER_04 29:27

Yeah, because you're still gonna learn a lot of similar skills from both jobs, but one is paid.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

But a lot of times when you're in those high demand jobs where smart people, unlike me, you know, engineering's one of them. You sometimes uh that might be a better pick, but I I don't think many of them are doing that because they know um there's other places that are paying. Yeah, so if you don't pay, you're not gonna get the best people. Plus, you want the person to be able to make, they can't go to school and drive to work and work for free. Yeah. I mean, it's just sound by the way, it sounds dumb when you do it.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:03

And then, but it's even dumber that you think people are gonna do it. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_04 30:09

Yeah, you got to add some value to it to make people actually want to commit to it and put in their best work.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Yeah, I mean, nowadays the drop dead number for any job is 20 bucks an hour. I mean, you can't get somebody to pick up gum wrappers for less than 20. They won't stay. No, they'll get another job. And people will go, well, you know, that's 20 bucks. 20 bucks is in Arizona is 40 grand a year. It's not enough to buy a one-bedroom or rent a one-bedroom apartment. I know that. But these jobs are not meant to be a career. You're not gonna be the gum wrapper guy, you know, the general manager of the gum wrapper company that doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

So you you'd use that as a stepping stone. Yeah. And the problem is it's a the stepping stone is blocked because we have a lot of older people that have issues with income. And that's when you go to these, you know, stores and you see a lot of people over 55 or 60 years old working. Some of them are working because they like it, but there's other people that are working because they have to work.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

But that also stops younger people from getting those newer jobs because that's what you need to be able to move up, which most people still don't think as restaurants and all this stuff as not real jobs, but that's a lie.

SPEAKER_04 31:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

Um, it's it just doesn't make any sense. Does that you agree or do you think no?

SPEAKER_04 31:35

That's super helpful. I mean, I would argue too, it's when someone says, well, an internship is so much more valuable than a regular customer service, restaurant job, whatever it is, I will argue like working at a restaurant, you are gonna learn customer service skills. You are going to have to deal with people that are mad at you, that are flipping out. Um, you're gonna deal with great people, you're gonna deal with awful, awful people, you're gonna have to do dirty work that's not necessarily fun, but you're gonna get to work and see so many different areas of what a business is that you gain lots of great valuable experience, um, even if it's not necessarily that fancy internship where you're working with a whole bunch of Microsoft Excel and creating big fancy PowerPoints or whatever it is, I think that there's still a lot of valuable experience to gain from one of those, say customer service or retail or sales jobs or whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Do you think that um do you think your age group, because you guys are what early 20s? Do you think that the people that you go to school with, are they up on AI? Because I've I've found a bunch of students that are not very up on it. Like I know more than them, and that scares me because I'm an old fart. So I'm like, you should know these things.

SPEAKER_05 32:52

I think in my experience, my peers and have used AI, but I don't know if they understand it and really leverage it to be the most efficient or effective for what they're needing to do. And I don't think they really think of the future of what AI could be and what it necessarily means for them.

SPEAKER_04 33:11

Yeah. I think AI should be a resource, not an excuse. And a lot of people can treat AI as an excuse to not necessarily have to do the work or to make AI do the work for you, where there are lots of benefits from it. However, when you just use AI to do the work for you, you remove the personality aspect of it. Um and so you you just end up sounding like a computer or you know, um creating the most basic of things that's not really gonna challenge anything or challenge you. And so so many of our classmates and stuff will you can you can plug something into AI and it'll it'll come up with a result and generate a result, but you don't really realize all the tools that AI can offer for you. We just use it for the most bare minimum of things, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

I actually think older people can use AI better because of their knowledge depth. I have knockout, drag out fights with Claw and Chat GPT quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Because it says stuff that's not right. And then when you challenge it, it backs off and then it corrects itself. But if you don't know it's wrong, yeah, or you don't question it, you just cut and paste and put it in. I mean, you you're you're not first of all, you didn't learn anything. Yeah, and but the arguing part is great because the great thing about those things, I have another friend that does the same thing. He are his thing he likes to argue with is grok. And I think he he people are like think he's a lunatic who's yelling into his phone. He does everything to do with the diction. And he loves to argue, yeah, but it's a great thing because you're not hurting anybody, right? Plus, it's there is some um, it does know a lot more. It starts to learn more of how you think. Now that that's where I think it's a great deal. Like podcasts, who do you have on, what kind of questions do you want to ask, how do you market it? Those are things that that those things know.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

Yeah. Well, and I mean you gave when I when I was in your class, you and I worked on a lot of different projects and whatnot. And I had the opportunity to come up with some questions and stuff that we would be able to ask the class. And a lot of times you are, I was able to run that through AI and say, okay, help me, you know, make a more professional statement or help me come up with questions for a class that's going to be structured like this without necessarily and then from there you can tweak and you can make adjustments and say, well, this is more the specific category that I'm looking for, or this isn't quite right, or whatever it is. And so you can really use it as a resource, but without you having some form of knowledge about what you're trying to do, you're not going to get anywhere with it.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Let me change topics here. What do you think about um because they say on the job boards about 50% of the jobs are fake. Or the companies just they they post the job, but they're not really looking. They're looking for somebody like they one of my customers uses the word unicorn. They're looking for somebody that's just absolutely special, but their job sits up there for months and weeks, years, whatever it is. And I keep telling them that people don't take you seriously. They don't think the jobs are real, and they just see it always up and they go to the next one. So you the constant fishing of fake jobs, they used to do it a lot with when we used to do job fairs in Arizona, which was a total waste of time. They do them in the middle of the summer and meet out at the ballpark and all this stuff. And they the companies just sent people for the because they wanted to look good. They weren't really looking for people, they were just down there pulling everybody's chain. And I just think that's a horrific waste of time. And it doesn't do your hiring any well. You want to work for somebody that other people want to work for, the competition. Have you seen that at all? Like jobs you just you apply for them and never hear anything.

SPEAKER_05 37:09

Yeah, I think there's a ton, and I even see on my social media algorithms that like it's like, well, applying for a job I'll never hear back from. I think it's a really big thing right now. And I even saw a social media post of a girl who got a like HR written rejection email for a job she never even applied for, which I don't know how that happens, but I think it goes to show that it's a big problem and it's very prevalent.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Have you seen that, McKenna?

SPEAKER_04 37:35

You know, I'll be honest, in my job searches, I've really benefited a lot from using networking and um, you know, social connections and everything. But a lot of online job searches and a lot that you see out on social media and in conversations with everybody, again, it's that applying for a job I'm never gonna hear back from. And so if I'm going to apply for a job, oftentimes you will find me walking into a company trying to get a hold of that person than with more than just an online job application. It's connecting with them through LinkedIn or emailing them personally or something along those lines using a personal connection because online job searches and job applications oftentimes feel like a waste of time if you're not finding some other way to stand out amongst all the other applicants.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

One of the problems I have with teaching is I think um I feel guilty. Like I've still have people from classes that never connected with me on LinkedIn. I'd even have um Tim, buddy Tim Dwyer come in and go, you don't you didn't connect with you connected with me, but you didn't connect with Mike. You don't even know you don't even know what he does. Right. Um, but I still have people that show up on that I knew I had in class and they never did it. And so trying to emphasize to people to have that platform becomes it's just exhausting. I mean, why is that?

SPEAKER_04 39:02

I mean, people that don't care aren't gonna listen and aren't gonna do anything. And I think that's the simplest explanation is that someone who cares and is ready to start caring will take that initiative and you know move forward and do that. But if someone's not ready to take that seriously yet, someone doesn't understand the value of it yet, maybe it's from a lack of real life experience in the job world, um, maybe it's from a lack of being educated from a younger age. We can't necessarily say, but if someone cares, they're gonna take the time to do that, whether it's five seconds or ten minutes. But if someone doesn't care, they're not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

I wouldn't let anybody come into the business college unless they could show me a LinkedIn that was built out to at least about a 65%.

SPEAKER_04 39:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

I I just think you're waste. I just think you can put all the stuff you do in school, like when we used to post the projects. I mean, people, old people like me, love that stuff because we want to help. You know, there's all these people that want to help you and you can't reach them because you're not doing the little bit of it.

SPEAKER_05 40:04

Yeah, I never understood the power of like LinkedIn and stuff like that until I was on a hiring panel. I was just there as an employee, like they were hiring for who would be my boss. They want an employee's perspective, which I thought was really unique and I enjoyed it. But off topic. But, anyways, before this guy was coming in, we were looking at his resume, and my boss, like, oh, let's look him up, you know, looked at the LinkedIn, the Instagram, all that, and it really kind of sets the tone for what you're expecting when this guy comes in. Yeah, and that's when it like hit me. I was like, wow, like this does matter, and people look at this, and it can completely change like the connotation of how this interview is going to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

It might not get you a job, but it'll, I think it'll keep you from getting one. Because if somebody else has a really good, then they they it looks like wow, this is somebody that's done something and they're young.

SPEAKER_04 40:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

I want people like that because I want people that like I tell people, people hire, especially younger people, they want problem solvers. What are you gonna do to make my day better? Are you gonna take care of problems or are you gonna be the problem? So I think if you make yourself look like the problem solver, people are like, oh, I like that. So I don't know, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_04 41:25

I mean, I think you leave a technology footprint wherever you go, whether it's through social media like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, LinkedIn, all of that. And a lot of that comes down to how you're gonna present yourself. So if you're presenting yourself well, let's say through LinkedIn, that's gonna make a job employer able to find you and quickly identify, hey, this is you, these is what this is what they've done. They've worked really hard. You can obviously see that they've got lots of good experience in different places and different volunteer opportunities or whatever it is, and that's showing that you're a hard worker and you're committed to demonstrating that versus someone who doesn't necessarily put that out on um online and stuff. And maybe they've done all this stuff, but it's gonna be a lot harder to identify how what they're doing. And you can also identify downsides of that as well. If you're putting out inappropriate stuff on your social media, an employer is gonna be able to find that. So if you're gonna leave a footprint of technology, why not leave a footprint of technology that's going to look good for you and benefit you?

SPEAKER_05 42:25

Yeah. I I think that it definitely is a good portrait of who you are. Just a little snapshot. And I think you're right about an employer wants someone who's proactive and a problem solver. They don't want to pay you all this money to deal with your issues and kind of watch you like pluck away at a computer and you know not be super complain about the free lunch.

SPEAKER_03 42:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

Yeah. So I think it definitely can show that you have what it takes and you're going to benefit their company versus harm it. And I come from a background of small businesses. Both my parents have their own small businesses. And why, from an owner standpoint, I can't imagine why you would want someone who's not very proactive in a problem solver, especially when you're so busy, you're the owner of a company or a CEO or whatever it is, higher-up manager. Yeah, you want someone that's going to help put out fires for you so you're not spending your whole day dealing with this little issue and this little issue and this little issue.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

Right. They don't want to micromanage you.

SPEAKER_05 43:22

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's would be my answer.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

Here's an interesting topic that I brought up. You know, you probably heard me say in class, I think, and this will be a good question because you guys are going through school now. I think school's five years behind what's going on right now. So meaning that this pricing, even though I know GCU is is very affordable versus everybody else. But when you got when you look at the size of the schools in this town, now I kind of cut GCU at a different piece of the pie. Because they have the Christian angle, which is that's a good selling point because there's a lot of people that come from the smaller schools and they want that. But the rest of the town, you've got footprints of all these buildings and air conditioning and maintenance and students and buses. How are they gonna be able to afford that? You're not gonna be able to charge these fees because it sooner or later, and it's already happening, they're gonna have a chat GPT uh university. And you know, it they're gonna charge you like four grand a year.

SPEAKER_05 44:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:35

How are you gonna keep your place open? How are you gonna make the money to be able to pay that nut? I just I don't get it. Do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_05 44:44

You have to pivot and adapt on where the world is going. That's another thing. I like the Western Governors University, all the and GCU is a big online presence too. That's why they're a little unique. But I think the online school is blowing up. And you're right, they can't beat that price point, they can't beat the flexibility and stuff like that. Whether it's as good of a degree, like I think I've taken a few online classes and then I had in-person classes. I 1,000% learned way more by talking to people. Like your class was so helpful for me. It really helped me get out of my shell and learn how to just talk to people, like we said before. That is something that the AI and all that can't give you, like an AI school. But also, you're right, the you cannot beat that price point of having an AI Chat GPT class or having the flexibility of turning in your assignments at midnight every night and you know, heading to work the next morning. So I honestly think it'll come down to who can adapt and who can kind of integrate that while still having the balance of education.

SPEAKER_04 45:46

Yeah. I mean, I have a friend that has just added a minor in AI at GCU, um, which I think is super interesting.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

Good, at least they've got that program.

SPEAKER_04 45:55

It'll it'll add a whole bunch of um knowledge for him on how AI works and how he can benefit from it versus necessarily suffer from it. Um but on the online standpoint is that's gonna be a hard thing to beat. However, like Caitlin said, being in person and interacting with people makes such a big deal. And I could easily say your class was my favorite class, and that was because it gave me real-world experience that I can take into life after college.

SPEAKER_03 46:23

The lucky thing is the two classes that I teach really are more, you can do more in class. Um, with there's not really tests, there's projects. Uh the other classes, the problem is when you're doing a paper or you're doing an opinion piece or whatever it is, you're just gonna get AI.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Because um, it's funny because people would ask me, I've had some students ask me, they're like, Well, Mike, you know, when you were in school, you know, if you had something like this, would you use it? Hell yeah, I would have used it. And I would have used it a lot. And you know, that's just the way human nature is. They're lying to people ain't gonna do it. I I mean, I would have loved that thing. We used to have to go to the library to look up a company.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

Nowadays, you can just speak into your phone. But I think as far as the schools go, you're gonna have to justify your cost.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:17

And if it's not gonna be as important, you know, that's gonna be a problem. Now, what do you think five years from now, will the college degree be valued more or valued less?

SPEAKER_05 47:29

I think based on history, it's been been trending down just because it is more accessible to people. It's you know, the more people just have a bachelor's degree or whatever, so it makes the the pool a lot bigger to choose from. And I wouldn't be surprised to see that trend in continue, especially with AI being so prevalent right now. But honestly, I just want to see, watch and kind of see what happens and go from there.

SPEAKER_04 47:54

I wouldn't be surprised if that trend continues, um, just with how easy it is to necessarily learn something. I mean, you can look a video up on YouTube and you're gonna be able to learn how to solve an economics problem pretty quickly rather than having to go necessarily into a class that's gonna last you a full semester and cost you a couple thousand dollars or whatever it is, um, because people are putting all these resources out for free. But at the same point in time, we are losing the aspect of what is free, because nothing is really free. So everybody is all these teachers who are maybe putting out videos on YouTube or creating apps to help people, like they're gonna start costing us money and subscriptions. So mat no matter what, you're gonna have to pay for this education in some way, it's just gonna vary on the price point and the availability to you.

SPEAKER_03 48:41

I just think when you have the the the amount of uh brick and mortar and this stuff becomes a super expensive to the gut cake. And that's not gonna be you're not gonna be able to collect a $50,000 deal. I just don't think I think it's it's gonna go the way of the dodo bird.

SPEAKER_05 48:59

Uh from a recruiting perspective, do you think that a fully online degree has as much weight as someone who showed up at 7 a.m. every day and you know sat through the two-hour class? You don't? Why is that?

SPEAKER_03 49:11

I just think the in-person is better for the to get the class together, kind of things that I used to try to work on, get people to know each other in the class. Because some people sit in the class and in classes and don't even know the person that's next to them. Yeah, in our class, everybody knew everything. They might not like everybody, but everybody knew it.

SPEAKER_05 49:30

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

And so you're not getting that online. And oh, by the way, what can I do when I'm online? I could do a split screen, the guy's asking questions, I'm typing it into Claude, I'm answering. So basically, you're just doing monkey see, monkey do. Yeah. Now, you can argue with me on that, but think about it. It's pretty simple to think. Right. When you provide the easy way, lots of people are gonna take it. Yeah. And they just want the paper.

SPEAKER_05 49:58

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

But I don't know if the paper's gonna be worth it.

SPEAKER_05 50:01

I would agree with that. I have felt like with socially graduating and being on my job hunt, I kind of felt punished that I was in class and had to wait. You know what I mean? Like I had a commitment to be in class and I was paying for this. I wanted to go. Right. But I had some of my other peers who were doing online school and you know, they were working full time and doing that on the side. And it's like, I why do I feel punished for showing up and going to class when I could have just done this online thing too and you know, be right there with you and being, you know, starting my career early and progressing further. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

So I know a school to not to be named that has the networking class online, which is not.

SPEAKER_04 50:44

That's not networking.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

It doesn't even make any sense.

SPEAKER_04 50:46

Right.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

Um, so but I mean, that's the kind of stuff that you get, and the lack of you know uh speaking clubs, toastmasters. Every campus should have a toastmaster, a couple toastmasters.

SPEAKER_05 51:00

Do you remember we tried to start that club?

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Yeah, but you get again when you you know you run into rigma row and stuff, and it has to have a certain amount of X, Y, and Z. Right. But it makes it hard for somebody to do it because you're just like, eh.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:13

So um, I you know, I used to get when I first started teaching, I got a you know, a big wake-up call that everything you try to get people to do ain't gonna work. Yeah. So then I started to do the what I call the the um lifeboats on the Titanic.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:32

I'm gonna take the group that you know is in the lifeboat and we'll work with them, and then everybody else, they're not gonna be part of it. And you just gotta take that, that they're just gonna be zoned out. I mean, were you there the day I I always ask how many people here because their parents wanted them to go? And there's always, I don't know, five, six hands that go up, and I'm fascinated by that.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

Well, you know, another good question too is it's like, who's paying for this? Are your parents paying for it? Are you paying for it? You know, big difference. Are you on scholarship? Because a student who is paying for their own school, in my opinion, is going to work harder and is going to be more devoted because they want this, and it is costing them money and time and resources to be able to be attending this school. So they're going to value it more over necessarily the student whose parents are just paying for them to go because the parents want them to be there.

SPEAKER_03 52:24

Well, I had that's one of my secrets with dealing with students because lots of times they want help or advice or something to on the side of who to work with. And I didn't do with any of you guys because I didn't need to do it because of the way you are. But I ask people, I go, So who's paying for your education first? Now, if they tell me it's their parents and there's somebody that's a sub-performer, I'm not gonna spend a ton of time with them because they really don't care. When somebody goes, Well, you know, I'm struggling because I can't speaking scares me. What can I do? Practice, blah, blah, blah. And they're paying for it, and they're interested in improving. So you can't spend time with everybody.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:04

So you got to kind of pick who's um who's the who's worth it extra time. Yeah. Or hanging out or stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 53:13

I mean, you're gonna spend your time some way, so you might as well spend it in a way that's valuable.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

Yeah, you gotta be there anyway.

SPEAKER_04 53:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:19

I mean, it's like people fighting over getting the work in at 12 uh at 11.59. And I'm like, why are you waiting till 1159?

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:30

And it's late, it's late. So, I mean, that's just kind of a one of those things.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:35

I mean, this has been a really good discussion. I mean, you guys, I mean, you're always, you know, in the top 10 of Mike's top 10. So I don't have any grades. I don't, I don't grade them any more than top 10.

SPEAKER_05 53:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:48

So um, do you have anything, just final words to say or anything?

SPEAKER_05 53:51

No, I'm just appreciative for my time in your class. And I really, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but how much I think you helped me progress as an individual and a professional, and just to get me to the point where I am today. So I think all that the knowledge you have up in your brain and you know, yeah, yeah. I think it's so valuable. And I I'm glad that you're able to share it with not just me, but you know, all the other students and appreciate you putting in the effort.

SPEAKER_03 54:18

And um, you guys are obviously my friends now, so yeah, uh, that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 54:24

Yeah, well, I just I would second exactly what she said, you know. Um, I loved your class and got to walk in there and build a relationship with a professor that is going to really care about where I'm going as a student, that they're gonna teach me real life skills and um how to adapt to an ever-changing job market um and just evolve and act professionally and be able to speak confidently without necessarily um curling up into a little ball and hiding away and everything. And so I'm just really grateful for all the opportunities you've provided and um all the skills that you've taught me or helped me further.

SPEAKER_03 54:58

Well, I'll tell you what, you guys are a great example of people that get it. So don't lose that. And oh, by the way, you I always tell people once you learn it, you have to teach it to somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 55:11

So that way you pass down the knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:14

Well, great discussion today. As I always like to finish the show, if you have a friend, you heard me talk about. If you haven't reached out to that person in a while, reach out, see how they're doing. This is my case with the hiring confessional. See you next time.